Dear serenity, Check out the thread "Ray Franz had a stroke today.." it has other information of a supportive and comforting nature.
Blue sapphire, that same site has Ray and Cynthia's address.
not a captive
JoinedPosts by not a captive
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58
The Grandest "witness" that each of us could give to the world looks to be shortly upon us. Will you be there? (In honor of Ray Franz)
by StoneWall inmany of us are aware of the stroke that raymond franz had yesterday,.
that he is on life support and it doesn't look like he is going to pull through.. someone on another thread mentioned if he didn't survive how many.
was planning on attending his funeral.. to me this deserves its own thread.. .
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I didn't know what a JW was, until I fell for one
by headoverheels inwhen i fell for him i was completely unaware of his upbringing as a jw and only became aware once he decided to leave a few months back.
being raised without much of a religious basis, besides the typical western christian exposure, i have researched, read, attended groups, read in this forum, to try to better understand him, and jws, but i am feeling at a loss here.
he just recently left the jws and now i am experiencing this struggle with him; i am wondering how much of our problems can be contributed to this transition.
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not a captive
It's 100%. Get away now.
Leave.
All of us either know someone who through it or went through it ourselves.
Even if you love him.
He will never be happy and he'll always blame you.
Absolutely miserable.
Maeve
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We need a national story about Ray Franz's life
by moshe inlike everyone else here, i am praying for ray to pull through this medical crisis, but i realize the odds are not good.
i know it's not something people want to think about, their obituary, but i contacted a religion journalist and told her about ray franz, his life at bethel and his books.
i hope she passes the information on to the rest of the writers on their religion blog.
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not a captive
Yes for a big national story but also yes for the little letters to the local papers editor.
We are now allowed to feel and speak and write. Ray was honest, faithful ,gifted.
But if he helped us at all, then we can do in a small way what he did.
WE can point out that sometimes there are people whose admirable acts are the thing that we find hardest to do ourselves. Lose a lifelong reputation in our religious world. But Ray Franz's faith in Jesus was the willingness to follow the Lamb wherever he took him; and that integrity is doing what is right even if you may sacrifice a great deal.
And Ray and Cynthia did this with kindness and grace. And gave those who found themselves marginalized and shunned by their own faith community information that has helped us heal.
I intend to write something of this to my local paper here in NW Arkansas.
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Friends
by snowbird indo you get a warm, fuzzy-wuzzy feeling when certain posters show up on your threads?.
i most certainly do.. syl.
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not a captive
It's like you calling us in from playing outside. And here we come.
Hi! Sylvia
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Jesus disses corporation-led religion??
by not a captive inwe were told that the right corporate "doctrine" makes the right group activity.
but words attributed to jesus at matthew 7 make me wonder if jesus wasn't discouraging that.
a small sample--.
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not a captive
If you find that a slippery answer, Gladiator. Then I am going to say that Jesus talked slippery talk also.
Mostly, faith is Jacob wrestling with the angel for a blessing. Faithful men and women in old Bible stories were scaliwags in so many ways. But the general thought I take away is that they each had their wrestlings. No one inherits the "winner's buckle" from somebody ahead of them.
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Jesus disses corporation-led religion??
by not a captive inwe were told that the right corporate "doctrine" makes the right group activity.
but words attributed to jesus at matthew 7 make me wonder if jesus wasn't discouraging that.
a small sample--.
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not a captive
Dear Tammy, Finding the union is perhaps not a continuing problem as much as a continuing challenge-- the good news is that it keeps us talking and doing what we think the Good News says.
I think that Jesus modeled for us what we are supposed to do when we get tossed out for being faithful: Don't start a new religion: JOIN ANOTHER CHURCH AND GET THROWN OUT AGAIN! I'm only kinda kidding.
Gladiator: I have looked at Bible passages the way I picture old trackers searching for clues on a cold trail. A lot may have happened to obscure the trail of Jesus but I'm counting on learning at least the general directionhe was going. That said, the word Logos was a different word than the word used for "the holy writing". Jesus was referred to as the Logos. The word has a meaning that is not much about a single word definition as a thought or concept.
The inestimable value of Jesus being a living expression of God is most obvious if you are poor and illiterate. The poor and illiterate are so often the very ones who most love to hear the words of Jesus. They take in the Jesus story and his parables. (Parables seem far less corruptible for the poor than the delicate and perishible qualities of a text. A shrewdand faithful listener to the parables will go long toward understanding the gospel without a reference library to help him, imo.). It has always grabbed me that when John the Baptist asked Jesus if he was the One or not, Jesus answered: "Go back and tell John what you hear and see; the blind see again, and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the dead are raised to life and the Good News is proclaimed to the poor; happy is the man who does not lose faith in me".
I read but I think about Jesus. I'm "semi-literate)
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"Conformity"
by inkling ini am not presenting this as directly relevant, or with an specific angle on the jw issue, so much as just on it's own merits as a really great take on phenomenon of social conformity:.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trniufrso8i&feature=player_embedded.
"we can be self defeating in our conformity: say we have a group of people holding opinion x. unbeknownst to the group, half of them secretly disagree.
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not a captive
Another effect of conformity is thatthe ones who pretend to support the prevailing "belief" undermine its value by their poor support of it in fact.
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The Grandest "witness" that each of us could give to the world looks to be shortly upon us. Will you be there? (In honor of Ray Franz)
by StoneWall inmany of us are aware of the stroke that raymond franz had yesterday,.
that he is on life support and it doesn't look like he is going to pull through.. someone on another thread mentioned if he didn't survive how many.
was planning on attending his funeral.. to me this deserves its own thread.. .
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not a captive
It may be a time that every newspaper editor should receive a respectful letter to note the quiet faith and integrity of a Chriistian who mildly and firmly followed his Lord even when it meant complete ostracism. Worshiping in spirit and in Truth cost Ray and Cynthia dearly dearly.
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76
Jesus disses corporation-led religion??
by not a captive inwe were told that the right corporate "doctrine" makes the right group activity.
but words attributed to jesus at matthew 7 make me wonder if jesus wasn't discouraging that.
a small sample--.
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not a captive
Hello, SisoNoSiso! Welcome.
I note your mention of Luke 9:50--it is the same account that appears in Mark 9:38-50 which I have in my last post.
that the chief role of institutional religion is to safeguard orthodoxy. Jesus was WAY more generous toward folks not in the "mainstream" or "in the know" than his own disciples were.
Maeve
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76
Jesus disses corporation-led religion??
by not a captive inwe were told that the right corporate "doctrine" makes the right group activity.
but words attributed to jesus at matthew 7 make me wonder if jesus wasn't discouraging that.
a small sample--.
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not a captive
So more people are turning to Christ without an affiliation with any organization. Sometimes they gather together, in person or on forums like this one, but they are keeping their faith in Christ and Christ alone. History and personal experiences have taught people that organizations are made of men, and too many of them are not worthy of trust.
All we can do is to do our best to live according to the love and mercy that Jesus taught.
Tammy, It seems to me that that is what Jesus expected to happen. Paul tried to set reasonable , practical guidelines. But as he so often says, most particularly in Galatians, do not fall back law. Faith and the Spirit will hold the Body together.
"My church doesn't bother me". If that is the highest praise we have of our present church then it proves the violence faith suffers under institutional deacons, institutional elders, institutional overseers, institutional "food". Christian gatherings do not benefit believers when we can repeat proper doctrine and no longer have faith in the son of the living God.
Can such a thing as church "work" without the impersonal hierarchy of religion? Only if there is holy spirit.
As far the problem of how to safe guard the congregations against the wolves: Apparently Jesus thought that a dedicated and healthy disciple would be well able to distinguish the difference between a true christian and a wolf--mainly because the truly dedicated have good motive "By their fruits you will know them."is how believers protect themselves. Much as you considered how you felt about the issues on this thread before you waded into it. You have good motive. and no body can make that happen in you. That this perceptive power is vested in each believer makes sense-- for any who gravitate toward such a false teacher, what can you do to stop them any way? Their heart is involved.
As far the thought of not fellowshipping with a person who has made themself an enemy of the faith? As I understand how Jesus viewed those who "hear the will of God and do it" Jesus envisioned more latitude in christian brotherhood than we now have in churches (Mark 9:38-50)
Is brotherhood an institutionally mandated relationship or a reasonable relationship considering the shared dedication and love we have for God and man? There is no fear factor in the counsel to associate with others who are seeking the Way of Christ and who are not in our "denomination" (I belong to Apollos, I belong to Paul!) Losing rigid conformity makes a genuine conversation about the way of God not only possible but more likely. Between believers and non-believers alike.
Just look at this forum.
Finally, it seems to me that when a person act as a Christian, God gets the Glory.
When we work for an institution the institution gets top billing--never God.
Holy spirit has to work to make Jesus Way clear for us. We'll fight forever if only the words in a book lead our way.
This is what I missed in the WTS